Penguins
Analysis: Are Dubas and Sullivan on Same Page? Did Letang Throw Shade?
The Pittsburgh Penguins’ overall trajectory was always going to be down before it could go up. Such is the nature of salary cap sports run by human beings who must look forward and not make decisions with the benefit of perfect hindsight. Yet several factors are specifically crushing this Penguins team that should have been avoidable, if not foreseen.
Eight blown leads in 21 games? Wait, that’s eight multi-goal leads in 21 games.
The baseline facts are easy to cite and easier to clench your teeth and demand better. The team is demanding better, so there’s no reason that fans shouldn’t either. It seems the Penguins have many culprits, but the same few seem to be at the center of the storm when problems arise.
Did Kris Letang throw a little shade their way Wednesday in the locker room when trying to explain why so … so many lost leads?
“I think, for the most part, the problem is individual. And I think it translates as a team performance. We play two good periods where (the opponent) goes one, it’s enough to lose you the game,” Letang said.
Huh.
We didn’t get a chance to follow up, but it’s an interesting take.
Individual Problems
There’s no question that goalie Tristan Jarry has failed to provide timely goaltending this season. In his limited starts, the former presumptive No. 1 goalie has given up bad early goals and bad late goals, such as washing away a fine performance against the Tampa Bay Lightning on Tuesday by completely losing his net in overtime, allowing Brayden Point an easy stuff-in.
Of course, Point was able to score without much resistance from Matt Grzelcyk, who Point also burned for the first goal of the game. Grzelcyk has been on the ice for far too many goals against. At even strength, Grzelcyk is a minus-10 in just 21 games. But if you prefer the advanced analytics at NaturalStatTrick.com, they’re only slightly better, with a 44% expected goals-for ratio.
As a top-pairing defenseman, much responsibility to defend falls upon Grzelcyk, but he’s been visible in more of the opposing team’s highlights than his own.
Erik Karlsson’s work in the defensive zone is often a problem, too. The Karlsson calculus has always included shaky defense but enough offense to overcome it. However, as the Penguins struggle to defend leads, Karlsson’s defensive shortcomings and sometimes less-than-maximum effort defense are glaring.
With a lead, the game can shift to a defensive position–at least for a moment while the other team pushes back–and the Penguins simply struggle to defend or keep the puck out of their net.
The forwards have rotated their scapegoat positions, though those responsible for shutdown defense have indeed struggled, too.
Dubas And Sullivan
In full disclosure, nary a hint of disagreement has been whispered or heard through the walls at PPG Paints Arena. No, this is more about understanding which players will be/would be successful.
To date, very few of Dubas’s acquisitions have worked well. Goalie Alex Nedeljkovic might be the biggest success story, but certainly no skaters have overperformed their expectations, and most have underperformed.
Now then.
Tracing back the Penguins’ acquisitions over the last two seasons raises a legitimate question to the fore. Did or does general manager Kyle Dubas understand coach Mike Sullivan’s system?
Actually, Sullivan’s system borders on philosophy, but we’ll save that for another day. First, some working knowledge of the structure is important before we ask the pressing question.
In No Pucks Given, Episode 6, we played the extended clip of Sullivan answering a question about Michael Bunting, but in doing so, really laying bare the decisions and responsibilities of the forwards as part of the “system.” It’s at the 15:45 mark.
“He’s tracking back into the D-zone and recognizing which forward he is. Is he the first forward back and the low man? Is he the second forward back, is he the third forward back, and with all of those things, there come responsibilities,” Sullivan replied on Nov. 11. “(Bunting) is doing better just recognizing which guy he is (when) tracking back.”
Another set of situations and decisions follows regarding puck battles and positioning. Sullivan was correct when he quipped that if he explained it all, we’d be there for three days.
Here is the important thing: It also takes a certain elevated hockey IQ to succeed. Sullivan designed his system to give star players maximum leeway to do things only star players can do because star players see things or anticipate things in a much different way.
So, did Dubas truly understand Sullivan’s system when he began acquiring players?
Karlsson was most consistently successful in Guy Boucher’s 1-3-1, tight defensive system in Ottawa, though he did an enormous amount of freelancing. Karlsson could do unpredictable things because the remainder of the team was in the structure. The last time Karlsson was on a playoff team was under coach Pete DeBoer–another tight systems coach.
Such isn’t the case now.
At the risk of pulling things out of context, Karlsson hates summer hockey because of the lack of systems. He says he’s terrible without one.
A measure of speed is also required for Sullivan’s system, but over the summer, Dubas acquired Kevin Hayes and Cody Glass because they arrived with some talent and a commensurate draft pick(s) attached.
However, neither are above-average skaters, especially Hayes.
Visibly, Grzelcyk is not the zippy skater he was, either. Worse, Grzelcyk succeeded in coach Bruce Cassidy’s defense-friendly system but not nearly as much in Jim Montgomery’s fast, uptempo system. Grzelcyk became a healthy scratch in a system that more closely resembled Sullivan’s.
Defenseman Ryan Graves is an extreme case. He was serviceable in Lindy Ruff’s rigid New Jersey structure but has otherwise swam upstream in Pittsburgh.
It seems like Dubas and staff should have accounted for some or much of the above.
So, the Penguins are left to defend leads with a subpar defense corps and a mismatch between the coach’s whiteboard and the real-life Xs and Os on it.
This team wasn’t supposed to be this bad. It was supposed to give Sidney Crosby a chance to make the playoffs, but instead, it’s on pace to give Dubas a chance at the first overall pick. The incongruencies on so many levels are so large that they would be visible from the space station.
Assign blame as you will. That’s the situation.
That’s the best analysis I’ve heard by far
Hey Dan – very interesting article and take on Dubas’ acquisitions. However, if you are to blame Dubas for not understanding Sullivan’s system, then you also have to blame Hextall and even GMJR. Could it be that Sullivan is a bit overrated? Aside from his first three years, he hasn’t done much to warrant consideration as a top coach. Indeed, it seems like he never made the adjustments once the league caught up with him. Moreover, it seems like the players we ship out do better elsewhere, and the players we bring in do worse than with their former teams.… Read more »
Hextall. Absolutely. JR? No. They had a great relationship and JR understood what it took, even if he made some mistakes.
Come on now Dan, time for real and serious journalism. You can’t possibly defend the majority of JR’s trades AFTER the cup years. Let’s recap (I will do you’re job)- Penguins acquire Ryan Reaves and a 2017 second-round pick from Blues for Oskar Sundqvist and a 2017 first-round pick. Then Penguins acquire Tobias Lindberg from Golden Knights for Ryan Reaves and a 2018 fourth-round pick. Penguins acquire Jamie Oleksiak from Stars for a 2018 fourth-round pick. Then, Penguins acquire 2019 fourth-round pick from Stars for Jamie Oleksiak. Good player, but not a Sullivan guy. Penguins acquire Derick Brassard, Vincent Dunn… Read more »
If you’d like to piss me off, your opening line is a good start.
That’s the comment of a “good” writer
Most of those are on Sullivan, as Reaves, Cole, Oleksiak, Gudbranson and Pearson are all physical players which the Pens needed but Sully has NO use for, and as you see they are VERY soft now. Nobody goes in front in the O zone, nobody clears the front of the net in D zone and teams know they are not going to get stood up entering our zone so they go to the net and cut to the middle without fear.
I would remove Pearson from that list.
Agreed. Sullivan never liked the tough pound guys into the boards like players. So Sullivan is the issue. It is time for a change
Agree, except when they got Reaves.
Dan, I still believe JR left because of Sullivan.
Agree 100%
Agree Hextall f’d up this organization along with GMJR. He knew and that is why he left thr organization
All valid points I guess the question is who is responsible for fixing what appears to be a serious disconnect between GM and Coach? FSG? I see no way out of the free fall if something is not resolved.
It seemed that towards the end of GMJR’s tenure there was a disconnect between him and Sullivan. Hextall/Burke and Sullivan, I don’t know if they ever entered the same room together. I thought Dubas and Sullivan had an initial understanding on the type of player Sully’s philosophy requires, but there again seems to be a disconnect.
It is “challenging” to get a star player for an average cost. Players aren’t knocking at the door trying to get onto the Penguins.
Sullivans philosophy hasn’t worked for several years now but he still seems to be the guy “driving the bus”. When are we gonna see a GM with the “nads” to tell him that “I’m the GM and you play whoever I bring in and, otherwise, keep your mouth shut”. I feel GMJR was fed up with Sullivan not playing his acquisitions and had no one to back him up causing him to leave and I can’t blame him.
Excellent analysis! I’m also wondering how much age/stamina has to do with getting early leads and squandering them late, when other teams start to push and age related fatigue sets in? Younger players have made mistakes too but they aren’t the superstars. The big four gets lots of ice time when the game is in doubt and the youngest is EK65 (turns 35 in May).
Grz looked pretty good in preseason and early this year but his game has fallen off a cliff. It’s almost like he is already wearing down after only 1/4 of the season.
Speed burns. It also allows recovery from defensive gaffs and aggressive moves. Speed is no longer a strong trait for the Penguins.
It’s quite a few years since I started watching hockey (just after Crosby was acquired) and I remember them not able to “finish” games many years ago – this isn’t a new thing by any means. I guess we all wish we knew the answer!
The issue is a simple one. If the players do not fit the personnel template required to implement the coach’s system, then either the coach changes his system to accomodate the personnel or the GM changes the coach. There are no other solutions because changing the players looking for the “ideal roster” is nothing more than a revolving door as we’ve seen for 2 seasons under KD.
It’s the talent level, not this or that system:
Totally agree
We’re just wasting time waiting for Sullivan to be fired.
See Boston, they didn’t wait years of downfall and acted quickly.
Comparing the situations in Boston and Pittsburgh is pointless. Boston has a talented roster and was considered a Cup contender. The Penguins were not at the beginning of the season and they definitely are not now. There is a precipitous drop off in talent with what Boston can put on the ice each night and what Sullivan has to put on the ice each night.
You have been and are currently the only one to continue to defending Sullivan. In your eyes, it’s simply never his fault. Are you neighbors? Friends? Related? There’s no way you can take the last 5 years of evidence and suggest that a change behind the bench, however fruitless it may be, shouldn’t be made.
Yes, he pays me to mow his lawn, get the mail from his mailbox, do the grocery shopping, pick up his suits from the cleaners, and run other errands. You got a problem with that?
I don’t get how anyone can think there is a coach out there who can turn this group of misfits into a winner. It is hockey and stranger things have happened, however i don’t see any coach wanting to take over a team on this clear downward spiral. So barking up the tree to get Sully fired is really pointless. Its not like the team has a ton of talent and Sully is throwing sway seasons with bad coaching.
The few reasons to replace Sully would be for mercy (like trading Eller) as GMKD has made previous trades to give players a better shot elsewhere (professional courtesy?), yet another attempt to send another message that their play isn’t good enough, and to bring in a coach to really drive home a message (like Torts would do, or Sutter, Gallant?). Grind them down into a simpler system and bring up the youth and teach them the proper way (to their… um… strengths).
It won’t happen but those are some reasons. Whether they’re good or not… shrug.
Vellucci is still looking for a shot to be head coach. Can’t get any worse.
It certainly seems like they are not even reading the same book, at least on different chapters; Dubas has jumped ahead and Sully is in a middle chapter somewhere.
Sullivan‘s goal is to win every game he can. Unless they do what EJ did to get Mario. Dubas has to look at rebuilding the talent level in the system.
Right never looks at the big picture, how has that been working lately?
Should Sullivan’s system change to fit the players he has? Or will that take a coaching change?
The problem is not Dubas or Sullivan.The team’s talent is too old and there is not enough young talent coming up behind the aging stars, but it seems FSG and Sid & friends are not patient to have a rebuild,so it is being done patchwork and called retooling(or some other name) and everyone is told that the team can be competitive.If you think the problem is Kyle,have a look at the Leafs who are winning consistently again this year.Yes,they have not gotten over the hump to win the Cup,but they are again very good like they have been for years.The… Read more »
I haven’t been the biggest fan of Sullivan lately, but I don’t think anybody else could step in and do better. Plus, who would currently want to be coach of this dumpster fire of a team? Dubas was saddled with mistakes from the previous regimes and has tried to do damage control. Sure, some of his moves haven’t paid off, but Dubas has done what he can with the situation he was given. The moves logically made sense, people can’t blame Dubas for these guys underperforming and now appearing overpaid.
Very informative article! A couple points I pulled from the article (over simplified) 1). Sullivan’s defensive “system” requires star players who are able to anticipate/do things that less talented players will not be able to do. 2). Dubas/Penguins are not getting star players (including Karlsson) who have the talent to play Sullivan’s “system.” Sullivan won’t change his “system.” This brings us back to a central theme. Sullivan’s success is based on a team that is more talented (“star players”) than the teams it plays. If Sullivan can not do OK coaching a team with average players, like most in the… Read more »
Well said and on point
Sullivan can implement any system the fans want him to. It won’t change the results. It’s the talent level.
Imagine trying to run a defensive first system with our team.. you can come up with the newest greatest system ever imagined but if the team isn’t good enough no system will work. We don’t have the forwards to go to a more offensive system, and our defense cannot play a defensively structured system, because they can’t play defense.
There has been a precipitous decline in talent since the last Cup win which fans refuse to acknowledge.
Kevin Constantine outcoached Scotty Bowman in the playoffs one year with lesser talented players. It can be done. How many years has Sully been outcoached in the playoffs by coaches with lesser talented teams (like the Islanders)?
Coaches need to be held accountable
Our last and current gm got us into this mess. The talent is not there. Too many bad contracts
Don’t excuse GMJR.
This is a spot on analysis of the problem. Either change the system to a more defensive structure or change the players. The questions are:
1. Will Sullivan change the system?
2. Will the current players accept and play with a new system?
3. Can Dubas get rid of his mistakes and get players to fit the current system?
Perhaps only the shadows behind the walls know the answers. I’m not sure that any of the answers will be a resounding yes.
As stated elsewhere, great analysis! Dubas was hired as POHO, it is past time he hires a GM.
I’d rather have the first pick than slipping into the playoffs. This team needs rebuilt.
Good Stuff Dan! There’s a noticeable misalignment—not due to personal differences but because Dubas’s strategy doesn’t fit well with the Penguins’ current system. Dubas seems to be bringing in players with shorter-term value, likely intending to convert them into assets like draft picks, as may be the case with Hayes. It’s possible Hayes will either be traded for a pick or bought out after July. These players don’t really align strategically with how the Penguins approach their style of play. In Sullivan’s defense, he has to work with the roster he has, but he seems reluctant to give more ice… Read more »
Every player Dubas has acquired since he got here were mostly successful with their previous team(s). Acciari and Eller were always very solid bottom 6 players. Graves was a career +86 before playing for Sully. EK was the reigning Norris trophy winner, Bunting is a 20 goal winger, yet they have struggled in Pittsburgh. It’s obviously a system issue, which is why Sully and his staff need to be replaced. Sorry, I’m not buying that every player that’s come to town forgot how to play hockey. That’s absurd.
I’m going to throw the “hopeful” spin regarding the forward situation. I don’t think it can be overstated how significant it will be if this terrible stretch has led to discovery of a strong 3rd line of young guys (Puljujarvi-O’Connor-Poulin) who can play any which way they need to (fast, skilled, hard, defensive, offensive). They have plenty of people they can choose from to construct serviceable 4th line (Glass-Hayes-Accairi). Maybe flip 72 and 18 on 1 and 4LW. I hope Beauvillier continues his recent stretch, though, and maybe earns more trust from Sid. 3rd line should probably even take some… Read more »
Regarding defense, i’m afraid there is no fixing karlsson or jarry at this point. Just have to try to make do around them. I would like to see them scratch Grz and try Graves back with Letang. I want to see them play Pickering with St Ivany for a sustained period of time–they seem to have some promise as a new shutdown pair. Both have size, and are not afraid of physicality. Both also seem capable at getting pucks through and on net. Accept some growing pains, let them work through it.
This is exactly what I want them to try on D! If Karlsson continues to be a defensive liability, why don’t they just move him to wing on a line with Sid and Geno (mostly sarcasm but not fully lmao)
I agree with this. No defense. It’s that simple. Our D keeps trying to play offense. They should not keep offensive stats on defense players. No structure. No protecting the net. No boxing out. No hits. No puck possession. Can’t get puck out of the zone. Not right.
Yet again, the coach is completely absolved of any responsibility. If a general kept losing battles and getting his troops killed, do you think he would change his tactics? It dumbfounds me that Sullivan can’t change his system around his players. And, I’m sure he dictated to Dubas whom he wants on the roster (see Reeves, Gudbranson, Taney, et. al)
Totally agree and I’m sure that has been the case with past management as well. As for Sullivan changing his system he is either too stubborn or doesn’t know how to coach any other way which means failure.
One of the best articles I have read all season. Great work!!!
Thanks, Espo.
Sullivan’s system sucks. Other coaches get more out of the same players. He is NOT a good coach. But by all means keep him. 6 seasons with no playoff series wins. Let’s go for 12. Keep Sully forever. He is soooooooo smart.
Keep Sully, keep losing!
Nedeljkovic is not a positive surprise. He only has had good games against 2 week teams which has boosted his save % and lowered his GAA. He has a. .886 save % and 3.17 GAA with a 3-3-3 record. Having said that goal tending is not the problem in Pittsburgh. The Defense is. If you understand goaltending at all, which most NHL coaches don’t, and pretty much 0 NHL writers do, it doesn’t matter if you are Igor Shesterkin, or Vasilevsky, you will let goals in. For Pittsburgh, as a goalie you start pressing to make up for crappy defense… Read more »
Dan, with all due respect this has everything to do with Sullivan and nothing to do with Dubas. Sullivan has way to much influence when it comes to the type of player the Pen’s bring in. When are the Pen’s going to address their lack of physicality? Sullivan hates any player that is willing to mix it up and stand up for a teammate. No one wants to admit the elephant in the room – we’re the softest team in the NHL. We still lack a net front presence at both ends of the ice. When it comes to Karlsson… Read more »
The Goalie is the LAST line of DEFENSE not the first, AND that IS the first and biggest problem with this “team”, they do not defend their goal as a TEAM. PATIENCE is required to execute the counter- attack and in defence of Sully he does not seem to understand this. True goal scorers are born with that instinct not taught and they are rare. “This is my opinion and if you don’t like it, well, I have others” (Groucho Marx) ……..Semper Fi.
Outstanding, Dan. Incredibly insightful look into the jumbled state of our Penguins. Especially the Dubas-Sullivan relationship.
Letang should know. He and Karlson are the worst offenders.
If the players you are acquiring don’t fit the coach’s system/philosophy, then you change the coach, change the system, or change the approach you take in the type of players you acquire. At some point in the process, you would think Sullivan would have input in the type of players he wants. If he has and this is the result, then see suggested changes above.